Bront's Forums

I couldn,t believe it when I found out.  They just released 3.5 like a few years ago, which was on the heals of the 3rd ed release.  It seams WotC is tackling d&d like its magic the gathering.  I will refuse to buy a new edition of d&d every few years!  If they can't produce a quality product thats worth them building products for a while with, I'll be damned if i'm gonna buy it.  In fact, the main selling point for me buying 3rd ed was that Margaret Weis was granted the rights to DragonLance from WotC and was releasing new product based after the War of Souls books that they had just written.  And then I found out that when it was released they had gotten sneak peaks of 3.5 so when it came out it would jive with WatC's new product line, so I reluctantly bought that too.  Unless Weis and Hickman do something for 4th, I'm not even going to buy a Players.  And if they do, I will probably buy the new DragonLance stuff and maybe a PH, and I'll mooch the others if I need to.  Screw them!  Screw them in the ear!!  There is just no way that the d20 system is worth continuing to reinvest in every couple of years, there are just too many better systems out there for that, and I'm not that rich.  In a nutshell, thats my humble opinion.
TV

Yeah, then after that we'll see a 5th then 6th and so on.  As long as there are schmucks out there willing to buy whatever they produce they will keep doing it.  As long as the rest of the gaming group I'm in doesn't switch (which it seems like they won't) I'll stay with 3.5.  It's got everything we need to play and we have all spent plenty of money on buying all the books.  We're not all millionaires to continue buying books.

For what it's worth, 3rd Ed is 8 years old and 3.5 is 5, which is around when they upgraded from 2nd Ed to 3rd (8 years).  It's actualy been fairly stable, as WoD and Shadowrun have had more editions over that same time frame than D&D.  And it's not like they're abandoning 3.5, as the OGL means others can still put stuff out for it.

Books released between now and the 4E release are supposed to be somewhat edition proof.

Looking back, each edition has been a major step forward.  2nd over 1st.  3rd over 2nd (and 3rd got a revision due to being so different from 2nd), and now they're ready for 4th.

I like the per-encounter balancing that they will be aiming for in 4th, as I find that works better than a per day assuming 4 encounters per day balance.

I can see improvements that can be made to speed up the game, add more character options, and honestly, I've felt that most of WOTC's stuff has been fairly high quality, even if I haven't found some of their latest supliments interesting.

Complaining about a corperation looking out for their bottom line is absurd.  It's the job of a company to make money.  But I think WOTC does care about D&D, and is going to do their best to make a new edition.

D&D Insider worries me a bit as a subscription based service, but I like the fact that ALL my books will be available online if I chose to subscribe.  If they can make the service worth while, with usefull character generators, monster/encounter generators, map makers, and other things to help DMs and Players, I don't see why it should be a problem.

Now, unlike my days of 2nd Ed, I'm not feeling the need for a new edition quite as much, but I understand that new ideas have come into the fold, and with 8 years to look at 3.0/3.5 and brainstorm, saying "How can I improve this?" is a good thing.

Now, D&D isn't for everyone.  I've heard all kinds of complains, some I agree with, and others I don't, but ultimately, everyone is free to play what they want.  But if 4.0 is as significant an improvement in the game over 3.0/3.5 as 2nd was over 1st, or better yet, 3.0 was over 2nd, then I don't see why it won't be successfull.

And with the OGL/SRD, the system is open to have other companies write material for it, convert existing material to it, and that will invest some new life into the RPG industry (which got a huge shot in the arm from the OGL back in the 3.0 days).

For what it's worth, Dragonquest went through 3 Editions in 9 years (1980-1989).  It has been abandoned by WOTC though (who let the copyright lapse in 2005 apparently)

  For what it's worth, you in theory only need the PHB as a player, and with the SRD, you can fake the Monster Manual pretty easily and didn't need to purchase the updated versions if you owned 3.0.

That said, I've more than gotten my money out of any 3.0/3.5 books I've purchased, but then, I've played it quite a bit, though granted mostly over the internet.
We're not talking about them doing anything illegal.  What they're doing is perfectly legal.  The fact is that 3.5 Edition sales are lagging a bit, and if the choice is to let D&D die or come out with a 4th Ed, I'm glad they came out with a 4th Ed.

Also, blaming it solely on the money isn't fair.  The truth is there are rules that need revisions, and changes, and it's easier to do that in a new eddition than releasing scource books that make such fixes.

Well, first of all, Tony, you're a new edition hater in general, so some of this is your personal belief over fact.  This isn't an insult either, it's just how you are.  You've been player 1st Ed Shadowrun for ages, and I believe even stuck with 1st Ed Star Wars D6 for quite a while.

Fact is that market research shows that gamers will buy a new edition every 5-6 years.  Doesn't mater the game system.  Might not be what you'd do, but that's the general market.  And that's not exclusive to D&D (See Shadowrun, Dragonquest, Gurps, L5R, HERO, Tri-Stat, and any other number of current systems).

Word in general is that D20 (D&D and related products) are lagging in sales in the past 2 years, and that's not because people have 90% of the books, as new books are not selling as they once were.  I know several D20 publishers (Mostly PDF market) who have been trying to figure out what to do with their stuff for 2 years, and fighting lagging sales.  It's a combination of most things have been done to D20 as you can in it's current state (IE, without a major revision), and people moving on to other systems that have evolved in the mean time.

The SRD is the Standard Resource Document.  It's information that is available to anyone and can be reproduced for free with only a page dedicated to declaring that the SRD is owned by WOTC.  It included a lot of reference text and rules, though experience is not mentioned, nor are rules for advancing a character specificly, and all flavor text is omited as well, so you need the PHB, and possably the DMG to play.  A few other things are missing as well, such as copyrighted names and monsters (So no mind flayers, beholders, and it's just Acid Arrow instead of Melf's Acid Arrow).  If I wanted to, I could package the SRD up and sell it myself, with no reprocussions, as long as I included the legal statement about it, and no other info. (And in fact, people have done it, usually adding some illistrations)  A good example of the SRD is www.d20srd.org, which is a great sight that I find I use more often than my PHB for dealing with characters.

OGL is Open Gaming Licence, which is where people could publish stuff using the SRD and D20 rules, or make modifications to them, but gave up any copyrights to them, allowing Wizards, among others, to be able to reprint them legaly.  Unearthed Arcana was actualy all OGL stuff that Wizards reprinted (which is why most of it is on the site I mentioned earlier).

Magic, being a COLLECTABLE game, is a completely different animal, and in the collectable market, new releases, expansions, and revisions are generaly expected.  They've amazingly enough never made anything obsolete, though early stuff does need some rules modifications (since Interupts were removed for simplicity).  And their rules are online, so you don't actualy need to buy anything to get the new ones.

As for your required investment, most people only ever NEED the Players Handbook.  DMG is nice, but only a DM NEEDS it, and the same for the Monster Manual.  So that drops your required investment in the game $30.  Now, will you need to change over?  No, but that's your choice.  Me, I'm honestly looking forward to it, because I can see some of the rules that do need revisions, and am looking forward to what they do with it.  If I don't like it?  Well, I can always still play 3.5, as there will be plenty of stuff still out there for it, and with the SRD, the rules are still easy to access, as the SRD and OGL will not expire (meaning anyone can still release 3.0 or 3.5 material if they so choose).

D&D isn't for everyone.  To me, it's always been one of my favorite games, and I rarely get to play it, mostly because it seems most of the people around here that I game with either don't like it, or play it at times when I'm not available, or just don't bother inviting me (Games fill up, so don't take that last part as a gripe, I fully understand).  As a result, I have played a lot more Dragonquest than I'd have cared to.  Honestly, I don't like the system much at all, but I enjoy the gamers and the company, and the stories, so that tends to make the system tolerable (I've seen worse).  I enjoy Cyberpunk and Scifi style games (Shadowrun falls into those catigories), and there are some good systems for those.  I've always wanted to play in a post apocyliptic style game, but could never get anyone to actualy run it (Reid could never find anyone else interested and available for the most part, as he loves that kind of thing too).  Some systems fit some styles of play or styles of game better, and that fit varries from individual to individual.  For me, D&D fits my fantasy gaming needs.  For you, it doesn't, which means that for the most part, WoTC isn't aiming for your market anyway (Think about it, you havne't bought anything besides the core books anyway, so it's not like this change is targeted at you in any way).

Whatever the case may be, 4th Ed is coming.  Is it a corperate move for more money?  Yes.  Is that the only reason for it? No.  Do more than a few rules need revisions? Yes.

Things that 4th Ed is aiming to do:
-Fix Multi-classing, particularly for spellcasters.
-Make monster stat blocks shorter (Monsters will be monsters, not potential PCs now)
-Make Race matter more at higher level
-Allow for more flexibility in character building
-Reduce what currently is a lot of character planning that is required to qualify for PrCs or feats you want (Reduced Feat trees, retraining rules, and looser entrance restrictions on PrCs)
-Revise how PrC (Prestiege Classes) work for a character (Adding a new option for a class instead of taking over as the character's class).
-Revise several combat rules, including itterative attacks, grappling, and special maneuvers
-Revision of the spell system (Might no longer be a memorise in the morning type of game), or at least create an alternate system for it (Reid was telling me how it might be a spell point style system with the ability to lock in some spells earlier in the day for a reduced cost, to basicly blend old vs new casting concepts, but that was just what he had heard).
-Rebalance encounters to be balanced on a per encounter basis instead of a 4 encounters per day basis.
-Remove the reliance on magic items in the power curve (while potentialy making magic items more interesting as well)
-Adjust skills (Combine/remove some skills, fix how some others work)

And that's just the tip of what they're working on.  Can't put that in an Eratta, and honestly, most of that sounds like an improvement in the system for me.

FYI, timeline for Editions...
1974 (Original)
1977–79 (1st Edition)
1989 (2nd Edition)
2000 (3rd Edition)
2003 (v.3.5)

I'm guessing they won't need a 4.5 this time, as 3.5 was a result of unforseen consequences of the change to 3.0 that became to big to simply eratta.

I've been gaming for about that long actualy.  It's almot 20 years from the time I first ran a tournoment at Gen Con. 

It did happen, but not as often, which is also true.  Again, how many of those companies are still around?

It was also the birth of the industry, and the availablity of the internet has helped speed the development of things along.  Mass market polls can be easily seen simply by reading forums, and global input is easier to accept.  Add to that, that OGL allows WotC to pick new ideas other companies come out with and use them, I'm not suprised that a new edition is coming out sooner rather than later, and see it as a trend that will continue with most "successful" systems.

And for the most part, my experiences gaming and talking to you, is that you are very slow to adopt new systems, and are often critical of changes that are generaly considered good by the mass market.  Not an insult, as you know what you like and want out of a game, but it does tell me you're generaly more inclined to not like a new edition, or at least not jump into it untill it's been out for a while.
FWIW, you should check out the Saga Edition.  I've heard good things about it from people not thrilled with the old D20 Starwars.  It's still level/D20, but they changed quite a bit of it (enough to where it's barely recognizable as D20 for the most part).  I haven't seen it myself, but I realy do want to try it.  Reid has the book.
In tournoment play? Yes.  But part of that is also the evolution of a tournoment to constantly get the best players, instead of a bunch of players using the same decks year after year, that only add a card or two from a new set every once and a while.

In casual play (which is where most people play the game), it doesn't matter at all.

But again, it's a collectable game, so it's a different machine.  You'll notice that the L5R and 7th Seas card games have similar rules and edition changes.
Ok, this is me misunderstanding yoru comment about you not getting your $90 out of the 3 core books. 

As I keep saying, 10 years between Editions is fairly rare in the gaming world.  Yes, it worked for D&D for a time, but in some ways, it kept the game more stagnant, and it lead to the death of TSR (among other things).

I think the problem is that you come accross as "This is my opinion and I'm right" in your arguement, in addition to screaming as if the sky is falling (and in particular, your comments comparing (even unintentionaly) releasing a new edition to dumping toxic waste and the screw them in the ear comment).

I've been following D&D for a while, so I've honestly been expecting a 4E anouncement for almost a year.  Not a big suprise, and, as I said, probably needed.   There are several games I wish would release a new edition actualy (7th Seas being a big one), and I'm not against making significant improvements in my gaming experience.  I'm at a point in my gaming where I don't buy a lot of expansion books anyway, so refreshing my core books with new material isn't something i'm opposed to.

Is that because the game has been out for longer than 3-4 years?  Or is there some problems that are in need of repairing?  I'm aware that it is roughly based on L5R, but I've never played it so I'm not sure how well any changes made are effecting the flow of the system.  (I did create two characters but that was it)  I guess what I'm trying to get at is this; When a company comes out with a new edition "just to come out with a new edition" than I'll probably hate it, unless its awesome.  I believe if it ain't broke, don't try fixin' it!  Now, if a company comes out with a new edition because there are some glaring holes in the system that need repairing that can't be bandaged with some easy home rules, than I'm going to look at it and compare it to the previous edition and other games out there.  If I like it its probably because its awesome.  If i don't like it, its probably because they did a shoddy job or it just sucked.  I'm sorry if that makes me "overly critical", but I don't have a six figure salary that allows me to run out and buy everything that every game company decides putting out.  I have to be a little more shrewed when it comes to the stuff I buy.  And even if I won the lottery, why would I want to buy something that sucks. so I still probably wouldn't buy everything out there even if I could.  I'm not one of those sheeple out there who believes everything WotC craps out is gold.  And there is a lot of crap out there. 

As I have been playing and running for longer than most of the people who are now writing the stuff, I think that qualifies my opinion on stuff thats coming out as being worth a little more than a steaming pile of crap.  I look at everything individually and base my opinion on what I see.  To me, as a GM, it seems that comeing out with a $100 investment every couple of years in the form of new editions, not including any splat, is the company targeting the upper class for their market.  If they wrote quality material than they wouldn't need constant revision! If a company is afraid of releasing a game so good that they'll never need to release a revised or new edition, and are afraid of going out of business because they have no more good material to expand with, than do what they are supposed to, MAKE A NEW GAME!  RPG's aren't windows, or a CCG.  It doesn't NEED new versions every couple of years if it works.   WatC's portfolio is so huge they're NOT going to go out of business if D&D sales slows to a crawl, and if they were, who is stopping them from releasing "new" games!  (Now, don't get me wrong, I know there are problems with 3.5 that need fixin, but nothing that screams for a new edition NOW!)  They were in fact doing just fine with themselves way before they even got the rights to D&D.  And on the subject of your opinion that new editions every 3-4 years is normal, well, its not until the last 6 or 7 years that this has become the trend, basically since WatC took over.  (how many games do you have in your library?  I have quite a few, and have been investigating)  So, I'm going to go back and underline what is at the heart of my gripe, and it really has nothing to do with being overly critical of the system.  (which is quite impossible at this point, since virtually nothing has been released on the 4th ed system yet)
]I think this is because my opinions are right, for me.  I'm not saying my opinion is right for anybody else, but for me, they are right.  Since the exact definition of the word reads thus; "a view, judgement, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter. a belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowlegde. a formal expression of judgement or advice by an expert."  Now, by definition, who has the right to tell me my opinions are wrong?  Nobody.  For me, they ARE right.  So I opoligize for coming across like my opinions are right, if that disturbs you.  However, if according to the definition of the word, you do not want my opinion, than please don't ask.  And don't you think the sky is falling comment is just a little bit exaggerated?  And the environmental comment was directed (intentionally) towards your comment that a companies sole responsibility is to its bottom line and shareholders.  Which I believe is incorrect, on any level.  And if 4th isn't a significant improvement, than I stand by the ear comment too.
I still haven't.
I think the market will show you incorrect there, as most of the sales are coming from those players who go to tournaments, and not the casual player, which is their target.
Ok, other than Shadowrun, on what other games do you base this assumption (as that fits your discription well) because I just don't see it.
Based on your opinion, I will check it out, despite my greviences, because I don't take your opinions lightly or with a grain of salt, because your view actually means something to me.  I fail to see how a companies failer to release new product or new games, thus going out of business, has any relevance on the topic.
I find this quite disturbing, as it seems that the IT world has deadend your senses to quality games.  Don't become one of the sheeple, think for yourself and anything that people try to spoon feed you, research things out for yourself and formulate your own opinions, thats the only freedom we truly have in this world.  (LONG LIVE THE INDIVIDUAL!)
TV

Hi All,

Rastlin - My friend for as long as I have known you, If it is new and simple it takes you time to embrace it.
and it seems to be your nature to seek out the flaws first, and exploit them.
this is both your strength and your weakness.


If a company dosent evolve with the market, if they don't keep releaseing either new or updated products they will fail.
WOTC has said that 3.5 was good but 4.0 will be better, it's unfortunate that what 4.0 is bringing to the table couldn't be errated in.
I would be happier if they would just come out with a new system (call it New20) and keep supporting 3.5.

I am looking forward to seeing what they do, some of what I have heard looks interesting.
BTW I have Star Wars Sagas you can take a look at.


Later All.

Jovis

I guess its a matter of somantics, as I see things.  If it requires you to rebuy the books again than its a new edition to me, no matter what they decide to call it or how many .1's or .2's or .5's they stick after it, its all the same ball of wax to me.  Perhaps if the "revision" was handled in a manner that didn't require rebuying all the damn books I wouldn't be so miffed, because they "are" releasing new editions every 3-4 years, since the year 2000.  I think if the last time I had to buy the core was in 2000, I'd definately be way less peeved at the prospect of 4th in '08.  But thats just me, it seams according to the market, that I'm alone on that.  (and SW 2.5 might as well be 3rd, I had to buy a new book.  But at least it was only one book and not three, that definately makes that a whole lot easier to swallow)
Well, even though I generaly agree with what you are saying, D&D has always been an exception to that case.  Just look at D&D towards the end of the 1st and end of the 2nd edition time periods.  They were both still going strong, everybody was still playing them and they dominated the table space at con's.  D&D will never die, even if they print nothing for the next 20 years, people will carry it forward.  Like what we are doing with DQ, but on a much much larger scale, as the fan base for D&D dwarfs that of what DQ had.  Whether its nostalgia or what not, people have always played D&D and always will.Ok, well I'm definately guilty of that.  Humility is not exactly a strong point of mine and is nearly impossible to keep in check without constant (and tiring) vigilance.  For that I do apologize.  Although I think you missed my point with the enviro comparison.
That does help me see where you were coming from a little better, don't sweat it bud, you know I love you.     (in a total manly man way of course)
It wasn't that way when I was playing, but that was a while ago, and I guess things have changed.  Although I find it hard to believe that WatC doesn't see its 2 cash cows in a similar light.
Thats kind of interesting, as I find myself to be quite versitile in me gaming reportoir.  As I like the simplicity of mechanics that SW d6 had and Serenity/BSG has, and really enjoyed them.  And I also definately relate to the setting games like SW and Star Trek, not to mention DragonLance and Shadowrun and.. and...  But I also like the down and dirtyness of the complex and realistic systems like DQ and Space master and (gasp) Rolemaster.  I mean its all game to me, I just wish there were others as versitile in thier gaming like me because I'd love to play or run in all these systems, but all the game groups Iv'e been in seem to be qiute 1 dimensional in that respect.  Frankly, I'm amazed I got my group to play Shadowrun, And am flabergasted that someone else is even running it now (even though its 4th), and I'm having a blast!  In spite of the system.  Because to me, half of the gaming experience is the people that are sitting down with you and sharing the experience with you.  And I am blessed to be surrounded by such cool people, and most of them have tricled in here (nods to drew, shay, thraketh, ash, and now jovis/kim.)  Thats basically the whole group, minus kids.  (I think I'll start a thread for us, now that we are all here and everything)
Well, 2nd ed SW was not as streamlined as 2.5, so I basically skipped right over it until 2.5 came out, and after looking at it I jumped on board pretty quickly.  The D&D thing was more due to timing.  Just coming out of what was basically a 2 rear hiatus from gaming due to my ex's view on games, left me with the feeling that I just wanted to get back into the swing of things, and blow of the dust from all my stuff.  I just wanted to do something I was familiar with, and than a couple of months later BAM, 3rd came out.  But again, after looking at it I jumped on board and when I found out that Margaret Wies was granted the rights to print a new Dragonlance RPG, and they had gotten a sneak peak at 3.5 and all the stuff they were doing was going to be in 3.5, I was the first in line to buy the core 3.5 books.  I guess that does make me critical than doesn't it.  If i dislike something because it sucks.  Oh well.  (can't I just be overly serious, or moderate?  What about overly light, or minor.  I think I've already got the mass thing down)Again, no matter if WatC goes belly up tomarrow, people will never stop playing D&D, ever.

No, I don't think your a sheeple, although you are kind of cuddly like one.

Now I find that disturbing.  I actually like the old cosmology.  And the fact that they removed the pinnicle of the baddies from 2nd ed was somthing I never liked, and was a major plus for 3rd as they said they were bringing them back.  Again, I'll have to reserve final judgement untill i'm holding it in my hand and can evaluate it myself.  But it still peevs me that it will have been only 4 years since the last "edition/revision".  But thats probably just the curmudgeon in me speaking.  (shush you!  You talkin' to me?!  Up yours!!)   

Shush you, I don't need your psychobabble mumbojumbo.  I refuse to accept your reality your trying to push on me!  LAalalalalalala
 

So say we all   


Jovis

New products promote a new fan base.  Without a new and growing fan base, things die out.  It happens with Sports, it happens with Movies, and it happens with Games.

Old fans will still be old fans, but new fans are harder to get without new material (and new material often gives a new apreciation to the old stuff), as new fans tend to be drawn towards what's out currently.

It's hard to see from an "old guard" perspective, because, well, you already are a fan.  But from an economic stand point it's true of just about everything, and from a fans perspective it's true as well.  The amount of time may vary, but not the end results.

Interesting find.

TSR failed by not listening to customers demands and being stupid elsewhere.

Believe it or not, 4E is coming much in part due to customer demand.  A lack of products moving is a syptom, but what's happened is that people have found other systems they prefer, because D&D/D20 doesn't fit what they want to play anymore.

How does that fit into the evolution of the game?  Well, other games can learn from D&D as well, and other systems have evolved that in some way, shape, or form, fix or at least address issues raised about 3.0/3.5.  Doesn't mean they don't have their own issues, but given time, people will migrate.

So, if we assume buidling the perfect system is impossable, what happens is that systems will change in their dominance, and will be forced to change or die due to competition.  As was mentioned in the letter, failure to listen to your customer base will eventualy drive things away as well.

At this stage, eratta and expansion book patches can't change cleanly what's not working right in D&D, and after a point, that's a bad tactic anyway (if I can buy 4 different PHBs and they don't agree for the most part, that's a problem, and if I need to buy the Complete Rules Lawyer or whatever supliment it is to get completed rules, then that's a problem as well).

There are examples of this in the Complete Psion, which revised some Psionic rules that weren't officialy erattaed, and the Spell Compendium, which Erattaed some spells in other supliments that never got Erattaed.  Eventualy, it becomes a problem.

It's one of the problems that I've always felt Shadowrun had, having a few expansion books be almost required to get a complete set of game rules (Usually a vehical book, an extra gear book or two, a matrix book, and a magic book).  The AEG games (L5R and 7th Seas) had similar problems, where expansion done in the splat books felt almost required to give players enough options and all the rules.  Given the large amount of fluff in those books, I can excuse them to some extent, but it can certaintly tax your resources.

D&D flat out tells you you'll need 1-3 books to play.  Players only need the PHB, DMs also need the DMG and MM.  Now, there are plenty of other splatt books out there for D&D, but few of them have ever added anything that felt so needed that the game felt wrong without it, no core concepts are generaly expanded from a basic framework to a complex and rich envionment, and for the most part, the rules content was still miniscule compared to content in the PHB (Not counting Prestiege classes, which were very hit or miss as they were usually very specific)

Doesn't mean D&D's better than any other game, it's has the advantage of A) not needing much of a core world description, so requires little fluff in the core books B) Having a larger market share and larger company behind it.  But Imagine Shadowrun without Shadow Tech or Street Samuri (Stuff so integral in the first 2 editions that it became partialy Core in 3rd), or L5R without the clan books.

Bump.

it's been a long wait, and IMO worth every second.
I am impressed with what they did and I like the direction they have went.

Character gen - easy generation with complex character arcatypes (sp)...no complex charts graphs or slide rules.

combat - flows great and keeps moving....the pregen characters and module we played we had 4 complex enounters in one night
The system is designed to reward you when you keep going and unless your pary uses up its daily powers you have no reason to stop.


Powers / Spells - all the bang and flash with out the smell of sulfer and bat poop...
In 4th edition every class has "powers" that they can use (at will, per encounter and Daily)
the Paladin smites are better
the wizard's spells may not look as "big" upon first glance but when you get into the thick of it I would say this edition's wizard can really dish it out.

Skill challenges - not just roll playing its role playing...
this will make some of my friends happy, when you need to talk to that Duke and convince him to help you out or when you want to sweet talk your way past some guards there is the skill challenge.
the DM sets the DC (lets say 25) and you roll your skill now the fun part you need to make 3 successess before you fail 2.....if you pass you get XP (even more when you add in some Role play) if you fail even more fun (for the DM).



all in all 4th has a great cinimatic feel about it.
reading the PHB and the DMG I get the feeling that WOTC did good.