Bront's Forums

If one starts with Atheistic assumptions, we are not much more than a highly evolved pile of chemicals.  Those chemicals react to stimuli the same way every time, they are after all just chemical reactions.  Where is there free will, if one is an Atheist?

Most athiests agree there is more going on with the human consiousness than simple chemical reactions.  There are a multidue of theories that don't involve God or religion.  (I almost said higher power, and while that's true, that Higher Power isn't nessessarily God in all of them)

Isn't that a lot like playing with semantics?  Um, we don't believe in God so the obvious supernatural, is just some natural thing we'll put a fancy word on so we don't have to say the word God.

Seriously, most atheist don't do mysticism, they mock it.  Anyone who does do mysticism and says their an atheist is just a confused person.  (my appolgies if I've just offended some confused person)

But, assuming no supernatural mysticism, what can an atheist really say?  All they have is a pile of chemicals.

I think I saw a documentery on this before. The sentient robots enslaved the planet..no, er...destroyed the colonies..no, wait...

I think the root question, Crispen, is whether or not that athiests recognize the fact that they have free will. And your question isn't for atheiests only. Many 'christian' denominations belive in pre-destination. That from the moment you were concieved your fate had already been cast. that you were either going to heaven or to hell, regardless of what you did. They do not prescribe to free will.

Pre-destiny is a different topic, I wouldn't mind delving into.  It's different in that we would then be more than a pile of chemicals, reacting to stimulus.  We would be more like a dot of color making up a great masterwork of art.  If I were a red dot, I would seem to have free will and do all the wonderful things a red dot could do, but still be predestined to be just a dot on the canvas. 

In contrast, if I'm a pile of chemicals, or an AI robot, same difference, I can only react to stimulus.  I might have a complex reaction, it might seem like free will, but it is not.  The chemical reaction or robot AI are following a repeatable, analyzable, set of on/off reactions that come to a mechanical reasult.  There is no free will just a chemical reaction or programmed result.

I completely disagree with you on this. Predestination, at it's root, means that everything that we do, have done, and will do has already been scripted out. We experience them, because we are supposed to. And if our life is nothing more than following a script that we havent seen, then we have no free will. We are just playing our part. Liek a robot.

I will have a good discussion with you, on one condition: At least twomore ppl join the discussion. While you had a good time going round with Raistlin, I think the lack of resolution in the Jena 6 thread came from it being a very limited discussion. I won't have the same thing happen with me.
 

Again, symantics, if someone calls themselves an atheist and then turns around and worships the whatever, they aren't an atheist.  They are probably sprititual humanists. 

How about Stir Fry? mmm..

And boy, you are good. Pulling in like that..

I will begin answering your question with a question. What is free will? Anyone? I know Crispen will answer, and I am interested in everyones opinion on this.

Again, you misunderstand.

I've found an amazing number of Athiests who believe in ghosts.  I'm not talking about Wickans, or Bhudists, or others like that.

Simply stated, free will is the ability of an entity to make a any choice it wants.  In contrast, a pile of chemicals can't really make a choice, it reacts to stimuli. 

Well, I guess I better throw my two cents in before this gets too far into things.  For whatever my spittle is worth in this forum anyway.  And I won't be apologizing in advance if I offend anyone.  I think people should study out the things they believe and hold to or otherwise not cling too tightly to them.  I think the idea of whether or not athiests have freewill is irrelevent and a waste of time to discuss.  The root of the question is whether or not any human has free will or not.  There is no value in discussing whether or not athiests have free will if none of us do.  Or if we all do, what is the point in discussing whether or not athiests do too.  Are they not human or something?  And therefore immune to the reality that the rest of us live in?  Don't answer that, it was retorical.

Exactly.  This is my point.  If all we were was a compilation of chemicals following a pre programmed set of responses then indeed we would have no free will at all.  But, given the exact same set of external variables, a human being's mood can affect the outcome of the chemical reaction as some of you call it.  If we were just chemicals, we would be forced to react the same way to the exact same external stimuli every single time.  A persons mood can drastically change how one reacts to external stimuli.  I think that a human beings mood is a property of its soul, and cannot be programed into an AI, or be judged or accounted for,  there is no way to take it into consideration, because the soul does not exist in this plane of existence, therefore nothing in science is going to be able to explain or catalogue it.  Whether or not an athiest chooses to believe this or not, does not alter the fact of it being true or not. 

Really?  Do you honestly believe that?  Because if you do, I'd like to hear how you've managed to "scientifically" explained and predicted the properties  of a human's soul.

You are correct here, because an AI can't be programmed with a soul, it can't even be simulated.  A computer, no matter how smart, will only ever be equal to the sum of its programming.  Science fiction is not reality guys.  And this is where human beings are different.  Given the same set of external stimuli, a persons mood will greatly affect the outcome of the situation.  And I realize that this is next to impossible to prove, but then again, if it were able to be easily proved, then everyone would have reason to believe in a higher power, or God, and it wouldn't be much of a choice then would it? 


Heh, Calvinists.  Hilarious.  What a load of malarky.  But then again, how many people have even heard of the TULIP system of theology.  Anyway, Dogma too literally??  And what dogma would that be anyway?  Just out of curiousity.  Because the last paragraph seemed to be pulled straight out of a book by L. Ron Hubbard or somthing.  And I think that your last sentence is in grave error.  It makes all the difference.  If its not our own free will, than we still have no free will and this is why;

I will answer that.  Free will is the ability to choose ones own destiny, and not have it chosen for him.  Can anyone with intelligence disagree? 
That is why it makes all the difference Fry,  If God chooses for us, its not our choice, and if we choose for ourselves, its called free will.Man you guys are funny.  Maybe we should introduse all these people to Ice Cube, Ice T, and Ice Cream.  (I know, chirp chirp..)

Um, ok.  So they worship the ghosts than?  Because I know some athiests that believe in the sun will rise in the morning, or that aliens exist.  That doesn't mean they are not athiests because they do not worship the sun nor the aliens.  Just believing something does not prevent on from being an athiest.  We all believe something.  But if they do worship something, yet call themselves athiests, they are just confused.  Or ignorant.  Or both I guess.  I agree with that 100%. 

Well, if its all just an illusion, then there isn't much meaning to life then is there?

And about predestiny, that depends on what you mean by destined.  For there are a great number of people who lack the mental capacity to understand the difference between predestined and foreknown.  Let me spell it out for the masses lacking in the capacity to figure this out for themselves.  Predestined meanes that (in this context) ones fate is already chosen for you, and you have no control over the end result because the choice was never yours to make in the first place.  In a nut shell, thats predestination.  Foreknown means that even though you have a choice, and no one or thing is controlling you, you and only you have control over the outcome, yet, because God and heaven are not bound by time and space, he can see all of creation from beginning to end, has seen all the choices ever made, being made, and ever will be made before they are ever made.  He does not control them, just by seeing them.  Thats like accusing me of choosing the ending to Star Wars Episode 3 because I've seen it and I know how it ends, then when we sit down to watch it, how on Earth am I responsible for how it came out, just because I have seen how it ends?  What a load of bullshit.  People can be so stupid sometimes.  Ugh. 

That was very well stated.  Hats off to that. 

Well, threre is my two cents.  For whatever thats worth.  Have fun guys. 

I suppose not. Seeing as there has been a goodly amount of time passed between this post and the last. How unfortunate.

We musta been typing at the same time. 

Interesting, so are you pro divine plan or Anti divine plan?



What does spark of sentience mean to you?   for instance, how do you know your instinct and spark are different?    What if I could logically show you that a population should 'normally' have people that do things, one wouldn't normally do?   That is to say abnormal people don't prove Free Will.  I'm not sure until I hear your definition of spark of sentience, that you are still talking about free will.  I wouldn't say they are the same thing.