Bront's Forums

Here are some cut and pastes that lead up to this topic. 

Lathlander said:

I think that my stance on divinity has more to do with the fact that what divine entity would allow the things that have happened in the ways of poverty as well as the poor living conditions in 3rd world countries to continue if they had some great plan.  If that divine entity were truly omnipotent, wouldn't they correct these problems?  Or, would they allow them to continue to allow us the chance to see how far down the rabbit hole we will go.  Why do I feel that I'm digging myself a bigger hole?

and Rakor said:

God gave us the world to do with as we wished and he gave us free will to live as we choose, if he were to fix all the problems of the world or keep up from making some of the mistakes that we make that would invalidate our free will. Think of it like renting a house or appartment, as long as the mess is contained and you fix the things that get damaged and live according to the rules of the complex, the landlord is probably not going to get involved in the daily day to day goings on. But there will come a time when enough will be enough and the landlord will probably kick someone out if they do not abide by the rules of the complex.

That time will come for God as well, it is called Judgement Day when we will all (and by all I mean everyone who has ever lived, is living or will ever live) be called to account for the life we have lived and how we have used the Free Will that God gave us. All the suffering going on in this world is, in part, our fault because we (collective we) have allowed it to happen because the popular opinion is to only look out for 'my needs' and not those of others. Because God allows things to go on in the world that are our fault does not negate His great love for us, it just means that He hurts more and mor for the state of the world that is ours to take care of.

One thing that I have learned is that before I go blaming someone else for the state of 'things', I need to look to myself first and ask, 'what have I done to make a change'. If the answer is nothing, then it is not God's fault, it's mine.


Lath responded:

Then I ask this, why ask for someone else's opinion if you are just going to attack it?

I'm not saying that the state of the world isn't our fault, I think that it is our fault.  We as humans have allowed poverty to grow and most of us don't seem to care about people other then ourselves.

As for a day of judgment, that would mean that eventually, your god will judge everyone that has ever lived.  This means that no matter what we do in life, god will judge us.  What right does he/she have to do that?  This would be like the leader of a government coming to your home and telling everyone how to live their own life.  I don't believe it.

There is Evil because there is free will. Since we have the ability to choose between doing good, or to not do good, there must be an alternative to doing what we would have otherwise have been commanded to do. Doing good, as it were.

There is famine, poverty, murder, rape, and a slew of other things that fall into the 'why does God let this happen' list. He is not so much as letting it happen, as we are (as humans) lying in the bed that we have made.

Of all of the world religions, Christianity is the only one that teaches love. Some teach enlightenment, some tolerance. Some oneness with the universe, some teach to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women. I choose to belive that there is a God (and I will be the first to admit that I am not the best steward..ok, the second. Ashley might beat me to it  ), and that he is love. I have to believe that there is some good in the world, that all is not lost. Because if I did not, I would go Frank Castle on everyone.

That's the good and standard answer.  But it fails to answer the seeker, who just adjusts and says why didn't he make a us better, give us the free will in choosing how to be kind to each other, and incapable of the bad things list?  Do we really need to be bad to have free will?  Aren't we (created in Gods image) evil and therefore God is evil? 

We are very far apart here.  Forgive me if I stumble as I try to connect the dots.  I am assuming a Creator, a Plan, an Enemy, a Fall, a judgement and a Redemption.  I'm sure you are intellectually understanding these terms, but something is in the way of your belief.

Our Carnal Nature, tempts us into a series of bad assumptions, the enemy is happy to give us a push in that direction, and fallen humans love to drag others down.  Many people are tricked into a self centered world view, which makes Gods will seem backward, or even nonsense.  Assuming the Bible is Gods inspired word, we are given instruction to help us through all this.   Please understand, the path is through, not around.  Bad things will happen, and God by his nature will use them for good.  He has not spared himself anything and suffers more than any one of us.   So I don't agree with the concept that God is unfairly punishing us.  He has created a just method of redemption (at his personal great cost), to save us from justice and the condemnation we deserve. 


Humans, and therefore the Church, fall short of Gods will (sin).  Not all church claims are true, becuase humans bare false witness.  So if I set aside 'the church', and all the different things that means to different people, then it is easier to explore your question.   So why doesn't God show us what we are doing wrong?  This put's me in mind of "Bruce Almighty", where Bruce say's, "God give me a Sign", and in the background all the signs are, 'stop', 'do not enter', 'wrong way', and he ignores them.  I assert that God has sent us the Holy Spirit to show us what we are doing wrong and we don't listen, he has given us the scripture and we ignore it, he has given us Christian Brothers and Sisters and we avoid talking about religion, he has given us the Church and Communion, that we might do this in remeberance, yet we don't remember.  If we look, he has done everything short of stripping us of the free will to say 'no thank you God'.  

God does us his power, but by his wisdom, not ours.  Pray for him to show you and he will.  Please, be ready, be sincere, and be patient, but he will reach you in a way that you know.  Remember the old joke, and never pray for God to show you patience.  

Let me illustrate.  I have four boys, I provide for them, but I don't give them everything they ask for.  Further, even though I have the power to remove many of their precieved hardships I at times choose not to.  My oldest son recently had a flat, he called me and I told him to fix it.  He had many complications, missing wrench, the jack point was rusted and collapsed, the spare was low, no money for a new tire, etc...  Eventually I did entervine and worked out the issues, but it was a good experiance for him.  He now has a wrench, a good spare, etc...

God wants us to grow, and we often missunderstand this.  

That was intentional.

The people who interact on this forum come from a varying degree of faith. I am trying to take baby steps. Leaping out there with that question/answer like that, well. I would rather move towards that slowly, and make certain we all understand what that question means.

No worries, mate.

We simply have different styles of discussion. I prefer small steps, keeping the group together. You like tossing the ball in a random direction just to see who is there to catch it.

I have to say that I strongly disagree with both of you. God created mankind to do good works and we were created in His image so I cannot believe that He would create mankind as 'evil', that is like saying guilty until proven innocent. It is our upbringing and our own decisions that determine whether we will be 'good or evil' in the eyes of the world. We all have the potential to do great things, both good and evil, but we are all created innocent and without sin.

Hi all, I thought I would jump into your lively discussion.

God had a bad situation in Heaven, Satan (an angel at the time) led about 1/3 of the angels in a revolt and tried to take over Heaven.  God and the other angels were able to beat Satan and his angel army and kicked them out of Heaven.  God could not allow a revolt in Heaven again so our time on earth is our time of testing.  If we can totally obey God here on earth, then he knows we will obey him in Heaven.  But if we cannot obey him here on earth then he cannot allow us to go to Heaven (he doesn't want another revolt).  So it is totally our choice (free will, God was loving enough not to make us robots).  We decide how to live our lives and we therefore decide where we spend eternity.

You are all dodging the question of this thread though, how can a good, loving god allow evil?  Is it that he doesn't want to stick him hand into the mess we have made or does he not care.  Is he being like a parent and allowing his "children" to make a mess and see if we can fix it ourselves before he has to?

Also, if god wanted to remove the "evil" couldn't he just instill in us an understanding of our enemy's viewpoint?  Then we would be able to work with each other as we understand each other.

Rakor, your question sounds like a Jehovah's Witness, "Have I been saved?"  I feel like I'm arguing with a brick wall right now.

I do believe in god, I'm bitter with him right now.  It's not to say that I do not accept him into my heart.  I want to understand his reasoning.

Ok, now that I have some time..

I DO NOT BELIVE IN ORIGINAL SIN. However. I belive that man has a higher propensity towards evil than good. That is why the bible exists. Left to our own designs, most of us would choose to not be good. We would be selfish, self-involved 'people'. That is why the bible urges us to...follow the 10 commandments...train children in the way they should go, so they will not depart from it when they are older...love thy neighbor...to die to our sinful nature daily. In my opinion, if we were mostly good with a sprinkle of evil nature, the bible would be much smaller.

And to take from Perkins a bit. In heaven, 1/3 of the angels exercised free will and revolted. What did the other 2/3 do? Was their 'programming' to difficult to overcome, or did they also choose to be obediant? I personally think it was the second choice..but..
THESE WERE ANGELS. The embodiment of goodness. And some of them fell. As children, we are all born pure and white (metaphorically, of course). However, it doesn't take very long for willfulness to manifest in children. That is all I am saying. Willfulness is another flavor of pride. Moses had it in spades.

np Rakor, I respect you for being willing to discuss this topic, I know that religion is something that everyone holds dear to themselves and it's easy for misunderstandings.

I'm not waiting for God to apologize to me, I know that isn't going to happen.  I have to find my path back to where I belong.  There have been a few guides along my path already.  I know it is a journey that I must make myself and that he is watching.

I think that Drew has hit on an important part of this discussion.  God allows us free will, it is normally easier to sin then to do good.  It has always been easier to destroy then to build.

IMO, there is a general missunderstanding of Evil, in our thread.  I know I'm going to step right in it here, and the gap could be unbridgable.  I'll use Biblical context, because you all seem comfortable with that.

Part of the Curse, when Adam was forced out of Eden, was that he would eat with the sweat of his brow until he returned to the ground.  It is part of our fallen state that life will be hard.  This is in contrast to God's plan for us, where we didn't and will not have to sweat for our food.

In short we live in a fallen world, and are confused by the contradiction between the image of God in us and the carnal nature of our physical bodies in a fallen world.  Let me take a moment to state the obvious.  The image of God has nothing to do with our bodies, it has more to do with our inate sense of what is right or wrong.  Lying is evil, because it is contrary to God's nature.  Death is only evil when it is contrary to God's nature.  So murder is evil, 'just war' is not.  The Genocide, so God's chosen people could take the promised land, is not evil. 

Many of you will disagree, but think on what basis you assume Good and Evil, when you disagree.  It is not hard to trip up the worldly morality many people use without thinking. 

Because we temporarilly live in the Flesh, we are all evil, we all fall short, none of us are good.  There will be a time when we are given Glorified Bodies, and we will be capable of being righteous then.  The measurement isn't mostly good, sorta good, kinda good, better than my neighbor, it is absolute, good or bad, no gray, and we all fall short. 

Well then, why bother to be sorta good, why not just be selfish, and get all I can at others expense?  The reason most Christians will give is becasue of eternity.  We should be good to get to heaven.  That's not quite right though.  It's a reasonable point, and if it helps you on your walk then I'll agree with it.  It's not the reason though.  Works don't get you there. 

The reason is that The Son of God, stepped down out of heaven and became Flesh.  He died horribly and rose again, setting the captives free from even death.  He paid my debt and yours, a debt we could never pay on our own, and have no right to claim anything.   We've been given a free gift of Grace, if we accept Jesus as Savior.    So out of graditude for the love he showed us while we were yet sinners, we should strive to live as Jesus asks, and that is our guide for what is good.   

Evil is everything else.  One can't be just a bit little evil.  Any evil is walking in the wrong direction.  Every evil is like spitting on Jesus as he is carrying the cross up to Calgary.

Paul illustrates this for us in Phillippians 3:8-21

8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ

9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

17 Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

T. I don't think we disagree here at all.  I don't theologically stop at claiming Jesus as savior, to me that's more of a starting point for sanctification.  I happen to have stopped there more to see what the response was, than anything else.

PS  James is my favorite book in the Bible. Short and to the point.  I can see where you would like him too.

Why?  What did we not hear, or respond to, that would cause you the frustration to just quit?